Drama Unfolds: Interview Transcripts and Notes

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These are the interview transcripts and notes for the “Drama controversy over ‘Play It Again, Sam’” article.

[spoiler title=”12/07/11 INTERVIEW NOTES: SHANE SMUIN”]
(Before “Sometimes I Wake Up in the Middle of the Night” was shot down)

• The original idea for anything is to examine the past and do something different for the future.
• The other reason we chose Play It Again Sam was because it was a single unit set, which is good for a travelling group. A smaller cast also makes things less complicated.
• Plus, Woody Allen is one of the great American writers.
• [Another factor in choosing PIAS was] practicality. But you always have to consider that.
• I don’t pick milk toast theater. It’s got to have an edge to it.
• It’s got sex jokes, and they drink. But it’s cute and sweet, and we haven’t done a romantic comedy in a while.
• If you take it literally, it’s misogynistic.
• Many people don’t like Allen because of his personal life.
• I have no idea when people started reading the show. On Monday, I started hearing murmurings, at which point I started to consider other options. On Tuesday, I ordered another script to look at.
• Monday afternoon, I got an email from the Drama Booster co-president, who asked me to consider other options. It’s important as a professional to consider my options.
• People have problems with the show whatever it is.
• My first show here was Urinetown. That was controversial because of the title.
• I have gotten blowback from every single show. I think there’s a very conservative element in our community.
• I have made a practice of editing shows. I’d rather do Hair and cut out stuff than do My Fair Lady and not cut anything.
• Every director has his own personal taste, which guides his professional taste. I’m not a Disney happy artistic person. I’d much rather participate in something that stirs people up and makes them talk.
• (GOW) I thought, let’s keep everyone happy. I took out a few lines. It didn’t destroy the story. There were some adult in nature lines.
• I cut Pride and Prejudice for length.
• The Scottish play I cut only for length, even though it’s about killing women and children.
• Midsummer Night’s Dream I only cut for length. Shakespeare’s comedies are raunchy. It’s up to the director to interpret that however he wants. Mine was PG-rated.
• Cabaret was for some people controversial. But I never faltered for a moment to do what I wanted. It’s an important story about Germany before WWII. I made it clear from the beginning—I’m not changing things just because it’s edgy. I don’t remember them asking [to change material]. I’m really proud of the show. I still get commentary about it.
• The Producers got a lot of people talking. They had varied criticisms. I wanted to have multiple teacher cameos, but we ended up only having Doyle. He was my fat Nazi.
• Durang Durang was cut because of language. I had fought so hard for The Producers that I just…(makes face)
• The Drama Boosters always run interference for me, so they tell me what the pulse of the community is. [Durang Durang] was just good comedy.
• He uses vulgar words on the occasion to make his punch line.
• I picked Curtains because there was no controversy involved. There was a Broadway version and a version for community theater and high school productions. We chose the high school version, so there was less controversy.
• The Grapes of Wrath was one of my favorite books.
• I remember hearing about foreclosures, migrant workers getting screwed, and I thought—have we learned nothing? I wanted to send an important message.
• The lines [in GOW] were more adult in language and humor. I was originally very opposed to cutting stuff. I talked to a professor at Stanford whose obsession is Steinbeck. I don’t remember his name, but he said: Steinbeck is cut in almost every production. Don’t sweat it.
• The only person I communicated with about the last scene [of GOW] was [Courtney Louie’s] mom.
• Bat Boy was sort of like Cabaret—I said, this is what we’re doing, and this is how I’m going to do it.
• I told the Drama Boosters—you have to trust that what I will do will be appropriate. I didn’t change any language. The song “Children, Children” was an orgy in the forest. I made it into a woodland creature party slash wedding. [Bat Boy] had a lot of gratuitous adult jokes that were unnecessary.
• The staging of the rape scene [in Bat Boy] was a practical solution, not a censorship solution. The Aragon theater has never had a sike (sic), so we couldn’t do any shadow work. I had to come up with our own way of dealing with that. It was totally different than anything else we’ve ever done. Different in style and theatrical history.
• Bat Boy was also a practical choice—small cast, simplistic sets.
• Play It Again, Sam is a modern American comedy. I know what they objected to, and why.
• It’s not very funny if you take the sex out of a sex joke. If you remove so much humor that there’s only a laugh every twenty minutes instead of every minute, it’s no longer a romantic comedy.
• I’m announcing the new show next Friday because I wanted to read it through. I’m fine with the new show. There might be singing…so we’ll sort of have a spring musical.
• If they would like to participate in the drama department, they can express that opinion to me. They also need to know that I am the director and I will make the final decision. But that has not been an issue.
• The administration will always discuss with me the choices that I make. They will support me if the choices I make are appropriate. They would have supported me had I stuck with Play It Again, Sam.
• Ultimately, it came down to some very important people. I talk with these people and trust their opinions not only on plays and musicals but on how I conduct myself as the head of the drama department.
• Monday, mumbling. Monday night, email. Tuesday night I met with my very important people: my mom, who has done theater since she was six; my partner-in-crime, Leanne (sic) Ecklund; I also ask myself what my dad would do.
• [If I did a milk toast show] I would die of boredom. It’s just not me. It’s not something I could commit to professionally and do a good job on.
• (Sabrina Imbler: So, you would rather do an edgy show and cut it than do a “milk toast show”) Yes.
• Part of the discussion is fantastic. Art is supposed to provoke a response. It’s great that people have strong opinions and beliefs. For a teacher, what more could I ask? It’s great. I hope it continues in a respectful way—no matter what the shows are.
• We’ve got winter break to calm down. By the time the cast list is posted, everyone will still have their own opinion, but people can be more respectful than it’s been.

[/spoiler]
[spoiler title=”12/09/11 INTERVIEW NOTES: SHANE SMUIN”]

• I showed [Sometimes I Wake Up in the Middle of the Night] to [Ms. Kurtz], and I showed her a particular part and said, fair warning, this is part of the show. She shot it down right then and there.
• It’s made of scenes and vignettes of issues teenagers go through. There is a monologue called “Thankful,” that goes (reads out loud the monologue)
• The play is about teenager issues, and it’s simple enough to set into a small room changed into a black box theater. Costuming would also be simple. So there are practical reasons why.
• [Kurtz] suggested not doing a spring show at all. I was opposed to that idea.
• I can’t imagine what would be objectional about this one, except that the author was a gay man. It’s my Plan C.
• It makes me feel like a Christmas tree at Aragon without decorations.
• Especially considering the morality tale in Bat Boy, I’m concerned that there is a kneejerk reaction to theatrical material.
• I don’t understand why it’s okay to read it, but it’s not okay to have kids perform it. It never has made sense and it never will.
• I know the argument is that [theater] is a “different thing”–but so what?
• There’s been similar levels of discussion in past plays. There has never been this much resistance from administration. They have a job to do, to make sure that what happens at school is appropriate. I just disagree with their decision.
• I can’t go forward with a production without administrative support. It’s appropriate to have the administration behind me.
• My professional plan of action is to make as many people happy, excited, and satisfied as possible. But at some point I’ll have to draw the line
• Plan C is actually a play I’ve always wanted to do. I’m looking forward to doing it–assuming it’s okay. I was going to save it for the new theater, but (shrugs)

[/spoiler]
[spoiler title=”12/12/11 INTERVIEW NOTES: PAT KURTZ”]
No it I didn’t know that. I thought we were still talking about the Winter Community Tree. It was not made clear. It wasn’t on my calendar.

Parents expressed concern to both myself and to Mr. Smuin. But what the issue really is is that … What he presented to Drama Booster on Wednesday night was that he was not going to do “Play It Again Sam” as we did not have a venue for the spring play.

His choice of venue at this point is to make the Student Lunch Room into a black box theater. And “Play It Again Sam” is not an appropriate play for a black box theater.

And Mr. Smuin made that decision and presented it to Drama boosters. They asked what the new play was going to be. At that point he hadn’t had time to finish researching a new play. I think he’s in the process of finding one right now.

I did not say I didn’t approve it. I didn’t say anything. He came and he had another play, and I didn’t even read the play. He presented parts of the play that he was concerned about. We talked about it and then he decided that that was not an appropriate play also to do, and it probably also was not going to work in a black box theater.

So he decided against it ultimately?
Mmhm. I wouldn’t say he decided. It was a discussion about it. And he began to look and he wasn’t sure that it was going to work either. If you go talk to him, he’s been working with Mr. Ho too and other people he’s working with on the play to find an appropriate play to use in that venue.

If you go talk to Mr. Smuin, this was a play that he knew about; he was not even sure that it was going to work. He had been in the play. In fact, if you ask him, he’d been in the same play when he was in high school.

Got the play, read it through, had concerns about it that he brought to me to talk about the play. We talked about it, and then he decided he was going to go out – and I believe that that afternoon he came up with another play.

Did I say no to it? No. We had a discussion … I don’t even know about the name of the play either. I did not read the play, he was showing me parts to it. And we had a discussion if this was appropriate content. And so I can’t tell you the name of the play either.

It’s Mr. Smuin who makes decisions on the play. I’ll support him or not support him.

Really it’s being driven by the venue right now. “Play it Again Sam” wouldn’t work in the venue that we had … And the second play that he got, I think after reading it, realized that maybe this wasn’t a good play either. I think, he’s found a play that he wants to do now.

Told me about it Friday. Told me about it again today. Cause I said to him, ‘Are you passionate about it? Do you want to do it?’ And he said ‘yes this was a play he had always wanted to do.’

And this was a play that again came from him. I have no idea it’s not my expertise.

I knew that parents weren’t happy about it. I knew that students weren’t happy about it. I’d heard that from both faculty and from parents. And they were unhappy with the content.

It quickly became apparent that it could not be in the venue that we had. We had checked every place. We had looked into CSM, Hillsdale, Burlingame. You name it … And to be honest, Mr. Smuin wants to do the play in the Student Lunch Room. He wants to do a black box program.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler title=”12/10/11 INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT: BARBARA CAREY”]
(Mother of sophomore Hayden Phinney and Aragon alumnus Alex Phinney)
Can you give me a timeline of your involvement with Play It Again, Sam?

I first heard it was going to be the spring play at the Donnies Awards last year. Right after we completed “Bat Boy” I found the script online and read it. I then sent an email to the drama booster parents with excerpts from the play of the most offensive lines and the entire script attached so the parents could all be informed about the play their children might be participating in with the aim of discussing selecting a different play. At the next drama boosters meeting, Mr. Smuin said he was selecting a different play.

What did you find objectionable in Play It Again, Sam?

The play focuses on jokes about sex, objectifying women and homosexuals. There are jokes about women’s issues such as breast size, dieting, hysterectomy, and rape.

In addition, the play features one main male character who has pretty much every other line of dialog. Last spring I had suggested to Mr. Smuin that the shows for this year should have female main characters since the last several shows had male main characters (The Producers, Macbeth, Grapes of Wrath).

Would you have allowed your son to participate in Play It Again, Sam?

No.

Have you raised this issue with any other past Aragon productions? If so, which ones and why?

Yes. I did not like the racy content in Cabaret but I wasn’t aware of it before I saw the productions. The number “Two Ladies” was about having a menage a trois and featured girls dancing between a boy’s legs. This was inappropriate for a high school production.

I had the impression that Mr. Smuin was focused more on putting on a provocative show than focusing on the experience the students were having, and what would be a good learning experience for them.

With Springtime For Hitler, I objected to teachers take part in the high school musical. Initially Mr. Smuin planned to have 3 or 4 parts played by teachers. I met with him and told him that the students have only 4 opportunities in their life to have a lead or outstanding role in a high school musical and it wasn’t right to deprive them of the opportunity. He decided to give all but one role to students, the role of the lead Nazi who sings “Springtime for Hitler”. My son, Alex Phinney really wanted that role and he also met with Mr. Smuin to let him know that. I also met with the principal to express my opinion that the musicals are supposed to be an opportunity for the students, not the teachers, even if the teacher is a better singer than the students, and if Alex didn’t get the role, Mr. Smuin could at least give it to another student. She said the decision was already made and she wouldn’t do anything about it. (And that’s why we had an overweight middle aged man playing the part of a young Nazi soldier.)

By casting a teacher, and students in lead roles who had had lead roles in previous productions (Ari and Jordan), I had the impression that Mr. Smuin was focused more on putting on a show than focusing on the experience the students were having, and what would be a good learning experience for all of them.

With The Grapes of Wrath, I objected to the adult language in the play and brought up the issue in a drama boosters meeting by reading the lines aloud that I felt were inappropriate. I also objected to the fact that for the auditions, my 14 year old freshman son was asked to read lines for a character discussing having sex with various women. Mr. Smuin seemed surprised that it was cause for concern but he did agree to change the wording in the play and he did clean up the lines I objected to which included graphic terminology and wife beating/rape.

With Bat Boy, Mr. Smuin said up front that he would edit the content so there would be no animal orgy or rape scenes and those scenes were not performed.

Do you think the students or drama parents played a larger part in convincing Mr. Smuin to change the show?

It’s hard to say. In the last drama boosters meeting Mr. Smuin said he was choosing a different play because there was no theater available to perform in and because of concerns parents had. There was no further discussion at the meeting regarding the objectionable content of the play. I don’t know what was said directly to Mr. Smuin by any students or parents.

Did you feel there was any important message dealt with in Play It Again, Sam?

No. But I also don’t think that every show needs to have an important message. A good show that offers fun entertainment and provides a good experience for the students is just as valid.

Do you feel Mr. Smuin has set a trend of choosing shows that are inappropriate for high school?

Yes, but I hope it isn’t a trend. I hope it’s over.

How do you feel about editing edgy shows into high school-appropriate versions? Do you feel this may damage the artistic integrity of the production?

If the show has redeeming value due to the story line or opportunities for students to experience and learn from then I do not object editing edgy shows into high school-appropriate versions. I do not feel it damages the artistic integrity of the production. The artistic integrity of the show should come second to the experience the students have participating in the production.

I think a main issue here is the accountability of the drama teacher and the show selection process. I would like to seem some criteria established that is adhered to regarding what material is acceptable. In addition, I do not think the drama teacher should have the only say in choosing what shows to put on. I would like to see the scripts read at least by the drama boosters board members before the selections are approved. I would prefer that this kind of oversight wouldn’t be necessary but with the repeated incidents mentioned above, I think it is.

Another issue is the purpose of the musical and play productions. I think they should be an opportunity for as many students as possible to learn about acting and singing on stage, work as a group, and gain the poise and confidence that comes with performing in front of an audience. I’d like to see shows selected that offer students those opportunities. I’d also like to see more student participation in the direction and production of the show. I do not think the focus should be on producing provocative material, or casting just the best singers in lead role over and over to put on the highest quality production.

Thank you for your attention to this issue.

[/spoiler]
[spoiler title=”12/11/11 INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT: LINDA BASS”]
(Mother of senior Elizabeth Bass)

Can you give me a timeline of your involvement with Play It Again, Sam?

We are told what shows will be performed the following year at our Awards dinner each May.

What did you find objectionable in Play It Again, Sam?

It’s too adult. What reference point do high school students draw from? They live today trying to be politically correct. The content was written at the end of an era when we were not as aware of how jokes affected people and demeaned women. As a person “over 50” I have lived through those times and on into correctness. Our audiences, however, are not all over 50 and we have to consider that.

Would you have allowed your daughter to participate in Play It Again, Sam?

My daughter has worked behind the scenes on every production and I would not deny her the opportunity to work on her final high school play.

Have you raised this issue with any other past Aragon productions? If so, which ones and why?

There are always issues but they mostly get sorted out.

Do you think the students or drama parents played a larger part in convincing Mr. Smuin to change the show?

I am not sure if students talked with Mr. Smuin. Drama Boosters brought up the situation in response to multiple negative comments.

Did you feel there was any important message dealt with in Play It Again, Sam?

Not really. Sorry Woody, this is not classic literature.

Do you feel Mr. Smuin has set a trend of choosing shows that are inappropriate for high school?

Mr. Smuin wants to bring fresh interesting shows to Aragon. There are a lot of factors to consider when choosing a show. We need to give lots of kids the opportunity to perform and work backstage and we need parent participation to help put on the show. Going forward into our new theater, we need exciting appropriate shows that “put butts in the seats” making it a positive experience for all concerned.

How do you feel about editing edgy shows into high school-appropriate versions? Do you feel this may damage the artistic integrity of the production?

I believe that extreme editing does damage the artistic integrity of a show. If the show needs that much editing for high school, then maybe it’s not the right show.

[/spoiler]
[spoiler title=”12/11/11 INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT: DANIEL BRENNER”]
(Mother of sophomore Kira Brenner and Aragon alumnus Ari Brenner)

I am happy to have the opportunity to be interviewed for your article. However, I am concerned about the use of the term “debacle” to describe the change in the choice for the play. I do not agree that this in any way could be considered a debacle.

As an active drama booster parent for the last 5 1/2 years and a board member for the past 2 1/2 years, I have heard complaints in some form about every production that has been performed at Aragon–in particular with respect to the choice of the show. This includes both Shakespearean plays and a production based on the work of a Nobel Prize winning author whose work is included in Aragon’s high school English curriculum, as well as those that could be considered “edgy”. As is the case in many situations, the voices of dissent have tended to be much more vociferous than those who have no objections.

Do you feel Mr. Smuin has set a trend of choosing shows that are inappropriate for high school?

As to the question regarding whether Mr. Smuin has set a trend towards “choosing inappropriate shows”, I think that a review of his choices reflects a balance between the classics and newer material and see no such trend. In addition to shows such as “The Producers” and “Bat Boy”, Mr. Smuin has chosen “Macbeth”, “A Midsummer Night’s Dream”, “The Grapes of Wrath”, “Pride and Prejudice” and “Anything Goes”.

Do you think the students or drama parents played a larger part in convincing Mr. Smuin to change the show?

Regarding your question about whether the students or the parents played a larger role in influencing the change of play, the question itself assumes that this was the reason for the change in play choice. That is not my understanding. This past Wednesday at the general meeting for the Drama Boosters, Mr. Smuin and Ms. Kurtz announced that they had been unsuccessful in locating an outside venue for the spring play. Because they were left with no alternative but to use the student lunch room, they felt the need to select a play with a smaller cast to make the production manageable in that particular space. Mr. Smuin requested that he be allowed to read through a candidate script before announcing the choice to the board as well to the drama community, and this position was strongly supported by Ms. Kurtz.

If it is the case that Mr. Smuin was influenced by students and/or parents to make the change, then I believe we are fortunate to have a director who is responsive to input. I strongly believe that the choice of play lies with the director and the student/parent choice lies in whether or not to participate. And yes, I would have allowed my daughter to participate in “Play It Again, Sam”.

What did you find objectionable in Play It Again, Sam?

I feel that the question, “What did you find objectionable…” implies that all involved had concerns.

How do you feel about editing edgy shows into high school-appropriate versions? Do you feel this may damage the artistic integrity of the production?

I have not read this particular play, but I have seen the movie. Based on the movie, I agree that some of the dialogue in the script would have required editing, but I did not object to the choice of the play. I trust Mr. Smuin’s judgment in appropriately modifying lines as necessary for the comfort of the students and community as evidenced by his thoughtful editing of past productions. I do not think the edits compromised the artistic integrity of those shows.

[/spoiler]
[spoiler title=”12/8/11 INTERVIEW NOTES: BRYNN MITCHELL”]
Senior theater participant

I think that this show crossed the line for me because there were some really intense materials in the last few shows in intense scenes, but in those shows there was some intense underlying message. But for this show it’s witty and funny and cute but it doesn’t have any underlying messages. I didn’t really want to be the only one who spoke out. As actors we have a responsibility to touch on vulnerable subjects but there has to be some line where we have to say I don’t want to be a part of that because its crosses my morals. Especially if it portrays unnecessary crudeness.

If it was outside the theater and the audience was different and more mature. The thing is thirteen year olds everyone’s little siblings will come to see this. This show doesn’t target the audience we have.
I heard that hes changing it to a series of vignettes.

We knew last May what the show was going to be but everyone was focusing on Bat Boy until a few weeks ago. I think that when all the parents got involved and realized how inappropriate the material was. Elizabeth Bass’s mom was really opposed to it as well as Marie Mihara’s mom, but we decided the drama boosters would just take care of it. The drama boosters did research alternative shows for Mr. Smuin instead saying
Its really hard for a director because there are those go to shows like Modern Millie and Guys and Dolls but its really hard for a director to get creative and its hard to see creative when you have such a young audience a specific pool of cast members to choose from so you have to pick a show based on how you cast. For this show he needed a single set and a limited cast members because we didn’t have a theater and there are all these stipulations he needed to consider.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler title=”12/8/11 INTERVIEW NOTES: SAMMY SHUFTON”]
So like a week ago when everyone was reading the script. Brynn send me a copy of the script. The whole script I only saw two things to be offended about. I feel like a lot of people were overreacting. The people who were originally most against it ended up wanting to do it. It’s a satire. I feel like people don’t really understand the era this was coming from. All the stuff about rape and deals with women is all said by Humphrey Bogart. But back then it was appropriate. The show is making fun of it. If you don’t’ know enough things about Humphrey Bogart and the period you wouldn’t’ find it offensive. The fact that he changed the show opened up a lot of bad things. Now people think it’s okay to change the show. They’re ignoring the fact that past shows have been very controversial. I agree that its not good to be offensive to other people. There was a rape in bat boy. That is why we have theater, to say things we can’t say in normal situations. I think its women are being a bit sexist against men.

Well in the past there is always somebody who didn’t agree with the show. In grapes of wrath there was a lack of big roles for women. In curtains there was a lack of big roles for men. Or the Nazi thing. Smuin was already thinking about changing the super offensive lines, but people had angst. I think people are overlooking the fact that Smuin doesn’t choose plays overnight. He does research and thinks about play selections for a long with.

This is my senior year. This is likely one of my last shows.

It was already approved by the administration. There was a lot of talk about his job on the line. I don’t people were respecting his opinion enough. I was planning on doing any show that Smuin would put on.

I think any show is appropriate for school because shows are the expression of the Earth. All shows are expressions of people. Its all from the art. Its all to make the statement. Even if you can’t agree with the statement. I don’t think its right to not allow a statement to be made. We even said it was PG-13. If there are things we can’t show little things, that’s understandable. You shouldn’t reject the actors from making the statement that they want to make.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler title=”12/8/11 INTERVIEW NOTES: KATE BLOOD”]
Senior theater participant
I’ve only read bits and piece of the script. My parents read it and I trusted their opinion. I think the moral is about sex and that’s not appropriate for high school.

I think with Cabaret, it was the first show that Smuin had done that was borderline and I think people were like we’ll let this fly. The producers was such a wambo show, I think there were enough people backing him. There were several people kind of borderline about Bat Boy. This one is just so blatantly inappropriate for high school students. Its very blunt. This isn’t the kind of show where you can hide it behind other jokes.

Well from my understanding, I don’t’ think it would have been a very long play. It would have had very much to it. There would have been too many jokes or it too embedded into the plot to do it anyways.
When I saw it was my last show, I was devastated. I may or may not do theater in college or beyond and it would have been really sad to not be able to do the last show for High school theater. Its monumental.
Each director is different. It may have been that he wants to set apart Aragon from the surrounding schools. I know whenever he’s chosen the shows he’s had its own personal connection with it or he thought it was a great show. Mr. Smuin definitely likes edgy.

There are certain lines in high school which definitely should not be crossed.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler title=”12/11/11 INTERVIEW NOTES: SANDY SKALE”]
We have dealt with controversial books, but they were a list of books approved by the district.

Especially with Huckleberry Finn, people were brought for professional development so we could present it with accurate context and background.

Where do you draw the line. It’s a hard issue.

Students in the class are not going to be shocked because they know what’s coming and why it’s coming.

[In the theatre] they’re not forewarned. There’s the problem of not really fully understanding.

What’s the greater good and who’s deciding that?
[/spoiler]